Just for Chris.

From Brooke's blog:

Sorry for quoting all of Rebeckah’s post, part of which included my earlier post, but there is just so much to comment about. I’ll try not to be as terse as she was in her post.

Um, Chris, "terse" means short and to the point. Perhaps you were thinking of "tetchy" or maybe you just think it's rude to point out the attempted lies of others.

Please see responses below:

Rebeckah says:
January 11, 2010 at 8:30 pm
[Quoting CHansen1118 below]

“The quote leaves many things to be desired.

“It left out that not only men, but also women were on the road to Godhood if they love God with “all their heart, might, and mind”. That women were co-creators with their husbands. That just as a wife should be “obedient” to her husband, so also should the husband be obedient to God. That the man is “pulled through the veil” by another just as the wife is pulled through the veil if found worthy. Thus, both are on the same path, together, if each honors their respective covenants.

“Gods and Goddesses – not just Gods and their wives.”

>Now there’s a facile bit of attempted deception.

Response: “Attempted deception”? As you judge you shall be judged.

Do you EVER pay attention to what you write? You are one of the most judgemental people out there -- and your "judgement" concerning the Christian church in this little dialogue is just the latest evidence of it. Pot, meet kettle -- black much?

>Okay, CHansen, I’ll bite. Who prays to “Heavenly Mother”? Which one would they pray to?

Response: Which God do you pray to, Rebeckah?

None.

The one you have conjured up in your own mind? Like the one that most other people pray to? That which they have likewise imagined up to themselves?

Speaking of judgementalism. Yet, I agree with you, Gods are figments of the imagination, yours included. Your arrogant assumption that you alone know the "right" or "real" God is laughable. However, I'm an openminded individual -- show me some proof that your God ISN'T imaginary and I'll concede this discussion.

How many people pray to Christ? Why would they do such when Christ Himself told the people to not pray to Him, but to the Father? Yet, pray to Him they do. Likewise, some MAY pray to a Heavenly Mother (most likely after praying directly to Heavenly Father first).

I don't know how many pray to Christ. I guarantee it's a lot more than pray to a Heavenly Mother. Which Heavenly Mother do you pray to?

Why would a Goddess need people to pray to her if they were not under her jurisdiction?

Which people are under which Goddesses' jurisdiction? That's my point. Elohim's harem DOESN'T HAVE any areas of jurisdiction. That's because they aren't Goddesses, they're wombs.

If they weren’t her children? Does a God or Goddess NEED people to pray to them in order for them to be a God???

Do you get whiplash switching subjects in the middle of a paragraph like that? So, since Gods and Goddesses don't NEED people to pray to them, then why pray to your Heavenly Father? And if you pray to Heavenly Father then why not Heavenly Mother? Because your religion isn't about women becoming Goddesses, it's about men becoming Gods and being just as callous, mysogynistic and cruel as your Elohim is. Personally, I wish there were a few Goddesses, they should be slapping Elohim into Hades for coming up with polygamy as a religious tenet. Mothers -- real, loving Mothers -- protect their children from evil bullies. Alas, your Heavenly Mothers are as much a figment of your imagination as your Heavenly Father.

>Is it, or is it not an excommunicable offense to attempt to discuss, write hymns to, or define any of Elohim’s “wives”?

Response: I have never heard of it being an “excommunicable offense” among Mormon Fundamentalists.

That's not an answer unless you are in a position to know what Mormon Fundamentalists do. Even then, you can only answer for the few sects of which you do know. Try a little honesty now. Either "I don't know." or "This particular group doesn't." would do.

Perhaps it is an offense among the FLDS since they appear to be the most rigid of Mormon Fundamentalist groups. I know it an offense to the current LDS leadership and have heard of excommunications over this specific offense.

Which rather proves my point, doesn't it. Since the Fundamentalist are also the fruit of Joseph's big con then it is very reasonable to assume that they are just as mysogynistic as the mainstream COJOLDS, if not moreso.

>Just what are these Godesses the Goddesses of? What authority do they have? What power? What function — besides giving birth eternally?

Response: Tell us, Rebeckah, regarding your last question above, just what it would feel like to be pregnant with a spiritual child? Would the stomach swell? Would it hurt? Would experiencing spiritual childbirth be excruciatingly painful? Just why did you bring it up above, Rebeckah? A red herring to ridicule believers?

I brought it up because it is the ONLY purpose given for women in your male fantasy of heaven. It is only ridiculing in your mind. It is demeaning and disparaging of women to reduce them as nothing but wombs, Chris. As for the logistics of your heavenly fantasy, I'm sure given your general disgust of women, you'd like it to be painful, so we'll just let your imaginary heaven run the way you imagine it to run.

And just for fun I'll share that I loved being pregnant and giving birth was a piece of cake for me. I would have enjoyed having more children but I'm glad I was selfless enough to stop at two. Then again, I'm not earning eternal brownie points, so maybe it was easier for me.

Just what would a Goddess have authority over, you ask? Perhaps Her own children?

No, I don't think so. If she did there'd be a LOT less pain in the world -- and polygamy wouldn't exist.

All things over which she presides in tandem, in partnership, with Her husband who is a God as well?

Obviously not in the Mormon heaven since there's not a smidge information on even one of them. Apparently only Elohim rules and the little women sit in their harem gestating.

Tell us – over what does a wife in a home preside? Along with her husband?

I realize this is a difficult concept for you, but women don't need a husband to function, achieve and excel. Neither would a Goddess.

The property? Possessions? Children? Teaching? Nurturing? Could it be the same there in Heaven?

Another newsflash, it isn't like that on Earth for the most part, why would it be like that in a heaven? Try for just a LITTLE logic, eh? And try opening your eyes to the rest of the world -- most of which is muddling along quite happily and productively without your mysogynistic patriarchal religion.

According to God, in the Bible, just who presides over the entire family?

What makes you think I feel that the Bible is any more trustworthy than the Book of Mormon? And actually, the Bible has plenty of examples of women who managed their own families -- Ruth and the widow who fed Elijah spring to mind.

The mother? Both the mother and the father with equal authority? The father of the family, perhaps? In many ways like a partner, but with the husband/father having just a little bit more authority than the wife/wives when views differ. Seeking unity in ALL decisions.

If anyone was seeking "unity" there wouldn't be polygamy. No, women make all the sacrifices in your male fantasy religion. What I don't understand is why women put up with it. It is sad that they are so badly broken that they rarely manage to take a look at the entire lose/lose proposition of the Mormon religion. Then again, maybe they do and just don't see any way out -- that would certainly explain the ridiculously high rates of drug use -- and abuse -- in Utah.

>If a woman was on the road to her own godhood, she’d be pulled through the veil just like the man and regardless of the man’s own salvation.

Response: She will be, regardless of her husband’s own salvation.

Really? Where is that teaching, doctrine or scripture? From what I've seen, if she doesn't have a priesthood man to pull her through the veil she's doomed to the "lower" heavens and separation from her family. Gives the man a rather unfair balance of power, wouldn't you say? "Please me or I won't pull you through the veil, woman!" Ugh!

It is clear to those of us Mormons and Mormon Fundamentalists on Brooke’s blog that you are ignorant of much of our theology and history, Rebeckah.

Feel free to use actual scripture, teaching and doctrines to enlighten me. Otherwise I am forced to assume that I'm absolutely right and you're just trying to mitigate the harsh truth with pleasant lies. Kind of like Joseph Smith did when he lied over and over again about practicing polygamy.

Yet, as an armchair Anti-Mormon Fundamentalist, you continue your tirades and spew forth falsehoods which the like ignorant accept as truth.

I repeat, share the truth then, not slander. If I'm wrong show me where and how -- but you're going to have to prove it. Feel free, I'll even post your response as a blog entry if you actually have evidence to back your claim up. Oh, and I'm not an "anti-Mormon" -- I'm anti lies. Mormonism just happens to be crawling with them, but it's hardly the only religion that is.

>If your faith truly believed in Goddesses, there’d be some information on them, not the resounding silence.

Response: There’s lots of information about them available to those that seek. To those who read more than Time articles and National Enquirer/Staresque publications. From those who actually are believers and not Anti’s and Former’s.

Put up or shut up. I'm willing to read it. Heck, just point me in the right direction and I'll look it up for myself.

>Oh, and here’s a newsflash for you,

Response: For little ‘ol me?

>contrary to oft-spoken Mormon belief, a woman’s sensibilities are not so fragile that someone taking their name in vain is a tragedy. As a mother, I’ve had my name taken in vain by my son’s friends many a time — I told him the same thing I’ll tell you — I can defend my own name; if I think it’s even worth discussing. Any Goddess worth her salt would certainly be able to stand proudly at her God’s side and defend her subjects.

Response: Agreed. Perhaps painting with a broad brush above, stereotyping all Mormons or Mormon Fundamentalists because a few believe that a Goddess’s name shouldn’t ever be allowed to be taken in vain?

That's the explanation I was given for why none of you know your Heavenly Mothers. If you've got another one I'm willing to hear it.

Oh, by the way, just what is God’s name? Fred? George? Henry? Or, are you just speaking of titles?

Elohim is a title like Jehovah? News to me.

>The fact that the Mormon Goddesses are MIA says all that needs to be said about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young’s view of women.

Response: You mean like Christianity’s God today? MIA? It would appear that no one has heard from Him in over 2,000 years.

You're right. Pretty strong evidence that he doesn't exist. Oh, and pretty strong evidence YOUR God is just as non-existant.